BEARR Trust Annual Conference 2012

Volunteering in the BEARR region: promoting personal and community development?

The conference was opened by Robert Brinkley, Chair of the BEARR Trust, who welcomed participants, and extended thanks to all the volunteers who had helped organise the conference, and without whom, BEARR’s work would be impossible. 

Session 1:  the role of volunteers in the UK and Russia

The conference opened with two interesting and comprehensive presentations comparing the history of volunteering in the UK and Russia, as well as current trends, the profile of volunteers, and what motivates them to give up their time to help others.

Prof Irene Hardill of Northumbria University began by setting out the history of the voluntary sector in the UK.  Prof. Hardill noted that organised volunteering began during the Industrial Revolution of the 19th century, with the development of the philanthropy and mutual aid movements, the former consisting of formal voluntary organisations enabling members of the middle and upper classes (mainly women) to provide assistance to others, while the latter arose out of working class self-help groups, as people banded together into co-operatives and friendly societies, to help each other out during periods of great insecurity.  

Prof Hardill then went on to provide some details about volunteering today, based on her own research in the north of England.  Volunteering is today understood as an activity that is freely chosen, involves no remuneration, and provides help to those who are not immediate family and friends.  It encompasses formal volunteering, as well as providing assistance on an ad hoc basis, such as helping an elderly neighbour. Three quarters of people in the UK take part in some form of volunteering each year, providing the equivalent of 1.1million full time employees.  72% of organisations would not be able to operate without volunteers; however, Prof. Hardill also drew attention to the fact that volunteering today takes place in a range of institutions, with 34% of volunteering happening outside the voluntary sector, including in the NHS, and unpaid internships in private companies.  

In regard to the voluntary sector itself, this is large and diverse, consisting of a wide range of different organisations working in very different ways, and often with very precarious funding.  The sector grew considerably under New Labour and was effectively ‘mainstreamed’, with considerable funding coming from local and national government for contracts to deliver services, as well as to provide a means for the unemployed to re-enter the job market through re-training and gaining voluntary work experience.  In this way, the role of volunteering in society changed, and it became a route to improving employability.  Since 2010, voluntary organisations have been called upon to take on an even greater role in stepping to meet needs where services have been cut, but at the same time, have seen the funding available decrease dramatically.  

Understanding what motivates volunteers is complex, as it is a multi-layered process, and volunteers often end up continuing with an activity for different reasons than those that formed their original motivation.  Prof Hardill drew up a list of four main reasons identified by the volunteers she had worked with for getting involved in volunteering:  giving alms, i.e. helping others; giving to each other, i.e. mutual aid; getting on, i.e. using volunteering instrumentally, to fill gaps in a CV, gain confidence, and improve employability, and; getting by, i.e. using volunteering to fill an emotional gap in one’s life.  Volunteers spoke of personal rewards from volunteering that they had not anticipated, such as gaining new skills and knowledge, increased confidence, and new friends.  But volunteering was also something that had to be carefully negotiated with other members of the household, in order to free up time to undertake it.  Overall, volunteering helps to generate social capital, a sense of purpose, but also personal and community wellbeing.  

Galina Bodrenkova, Head of the Russian Volunteer Development Centre in Moscow, which has been cooperating with BEARR since 1991, then spoke of the development of volunteering in Russia.  Volunteering in Russia is relatively recent, particularly in comparison to the UK, having only emerged in the 1990s, after the end of the Soviet Union.  Of course, the movement has been shaped by the social, cultural, historical, political, and economic environments in Russia, and was particularly influenced by the democratic reforms of the 1990s, and by the emergence of the non-commercial, non-governmental Third Sector.  In the early days, there was great enthusiasm but zero knowledge, and so learning from international experience was extremely important.      

There are no exact figures as to the number of people volunteering in Russia, but research conducted in 2008 found that only 3.2% of Russians were formally volunteering (through organisations), although a further 30% said they took part in informal volunteer activities, such as helping neighbours.  70% of those who said they took part in some form of volunteering were women; men who volunteered were more likely to be involved in sports and recreation activities.  Overall, volunteers were highly educated, with most having university level education.  

Ms Bodrenkova then went on to talk about some interesting trends in regard to volunteer age and motivation, evidenced in surveys that her own organisation had undertaken in 1994 and 2007.  In 1994, most volunteers were over 50, and had got involved in volunteering out of a desire to help others.  By 2007, many volunteers were younger (indeed, many survey respondents were questioned at a youth volunteering event), and their reasons for volunteering were to do with developing new skills, and having the chance to develop their initiative.  The way people volunteer in formal settings is also changing; whereas in the past, it was NGOs that took the initiative in terms of promoting volunteering, now more people are spontaneously forming volunteer groups, for instance, to respond to natural disasters or local emergencies.  However, overall, the level of involvement in voluntary activities remains very low in Russia.

Another aspect of the voluntary sector in Russia that is changing is the increased co-operation between the state and NGOs, with increased state support for volunteering initiatives, and funding.  Ms Bodrenkova very much saw the future of volunteering in Russia as one where this state / NGO cooperation would continue, and grow.  In particular, she highlighted how volunteering and voluntary organisations have been incorporated into the 2020 State Plan for Social and Economic Development, particularly in regard to social development and youth.  This includes the goal of increasing the ratio of people formally volunteering from 3% to 30%.  Central to this is establishing a network of local volunteer centres, so that people who wish to volunteer can present themselves and be matched up with an appropriate volunteer placement.  These centres would be state-funded, but independent.  Ms Bodrenkova’s and her organisation have been involved in establishing 10 pilot centres, as well as training and promoting volunteers.  Concluding, Ms Bodrenkova noted that the Russian voluntary sector has a lot of work ahead, but that she and others in the sector are encouraged by what they can learn from the international experience.        

These two opening presentations prompted some very lively discussion, including discussion on volunteering at large sporting events (i.e. the London Olympics, and the forthcoming Winter Olympics in Sochi) and whether this helps encourage more long-term volunteering, what activities count as volunteering, and regional variations in volunteering across Russia and the UK.  Prof Hardill noted that many of those involved in Olympics volunteering were already volunteers elsewhere, while Ms Bodrenkova explained how 25,000 student volunteers had already been recruited to work at the Sochi games, and that they would continue to be involved in volunteering activities after the Winter Olympics had finished.  Prof Hardill said that variation in volunteering activities was more defined by class differences than region, while Ms Bodrenkova felt that in her experience, the desire to volunteer and help others was present in all regions, although the practice of volunteering might be different, as a result of what opportunities are available in the place where a would-be volunteer lives.  There was also discussion of whether volunteers in both countries felt that they were contributing to social change, and whether that was a motivation for them. 

The main discussion, however, focused on the increasing role of the Russian state in regulating and controlling the activities of NGOs, and how this would impact on volunteering.  Questions concerned the new law on NGOs receiving foreign funding (which requires NGOs to declare themselves as ‘foreign agents’ if they are in receipt of funding from overseas) and whether this would put people off volunteering with such organisations, whether state funding to local volunteer centres would effectively limit what activities organisations associated with those volunteer centres could do, and how local laws banning the ‘propaganda of homosexuality’ would impact on organisations working with the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) community in Russia.  In regard to the ‘foreign agents’ law, Ms Bodrenkova said that she felt this would more be an issue for human rights and opposition organisations than for voluntary organisations working in the social sector, and that President Putin had given his assurances that they would not be affected.  She knew of one organisation in Tatarstan that had received funding from overseas for a volunteer centre without any problem.  Ms Bodrenkova did, however, feel that specific legislation was needed to define the difference between volunteer organisations and NGOs.  

On the matter of state funding to NGOs, Ms Bodrenkova argued that in cases where organisations were providing social services, the state had a duty to provide funding, because such organisations were effectively helping the state to fulfil its commitments under the Constitution.  In addition, state funding to the network of local volunteer centres that she had talked about would ensure their sustainability.  Ms Bodrenkova pointed out that receiving state funding did not necessarily mean that an organisation could not speak openly; for instance, the Helsinki Foundation had received state money, and this had not affected its activities.  On the matter of LGBT organisations, however, local laws on the propaganda of homosexuality would mean that they would not be able to access state funding.       

Session 2:  Case study:  volunteering in Belarus

This session began with a short presentation by Maksim Padbiarozkin, Deputy Director at the Children’s Hospice in Minsk.  Mr Padbiarozkin started off by talking about the history of the voluntary sector in Belarus, noting that voluntary organisations first emerged in the early 1990s, with the first law on NGOs in 1993, and the Belarusian Children’s Hospice and Nadezhda Children’s Express opening in 1994.  The establishment of university faculties of Social Work and Psychology in 1996 had a big impact on volunteering in the social sector, as students were expected to volunteer as part of their training. Official guidelines issued in 2000 stated that volunteers could provide unpaid social work, and in 2012, a new Law On Social Services included a more comprehensive definition of a volunteer, as someone who works under professionals.  Today, there are 2402 registered NGOs in the country, many of which provide opportunities for volunteering.  However, other forms of volunteering are difficult, as technically, it is illegal to volunteer unless through a registered organisation.  Legislation in place makes it very difficult for NGOs to register, limiting the opportunities that are available for people to volunteer.  The government is currently trying to increase official coordination of volunteering activities, in particular through the establishment of the Youth Union of Volunteers.  In some cases, young people have been compelled to volunteer.  International volunteering is underdeveloped in the country, which is a shame, as Belarus remains quite a closed country, and international volunteering could help to address that.  

At the Hospice, they work with 340 volunteers, most of whom are students aged 17-22.  This is an age group who may not have professional skills, but they are very active, and also very internet-literate, which is an important skill in this age.  The Hospice never has to appeal directly for volunteers; they have a high media visibility, and each week they receive enquiries about volunteering.  There is a lengthy questionnaire that would-be volunteers are asked to complete, so that their skills and interests can be matched with an appropriate position.  Volunteers who are accepted are asked to sign a contract, and are given tailored training for their role.  Many volunteers do not last very long, but the Hospice feels that even those who do not stay have something to contribute, and can also pass on what they have learned during training to others.   A survey of 200 volunteers at the Hospice found that most people were prompted to volunteer by a desire to help, and to be active in society. 

Most people in Belarus don’t understand what volunteering is, and see it as something that you do once (e.g. donating), rather than something where you can use and develop your professional skills.  At the moment, Mr Padbiarozkin feels that the Hospice could be making better use of the professional skills of its volunteers, and should put more thought into planning strategically to do this.  The Hospice is proud, however, that it has the most developed volunteering system in Belarus, and hope to create a volunteering centre to train other groups. 

Responding, Oscar Franklin of Age UK noted the important role the Belarus Hospice volunteers play as ambassadors for the Hospice’s vision of good Belarusian society, and lauded the Hospice’s volunteer scheme as an example of needs based volunteer practice in the face of official obstruction, indifference, and a misconstrued idea of what volunteering is and what role it plays in society.  While in the early years post 1991, volunteering had primarily taken place through religious organisations, had taken up a lot of time, and had been as something that involved ‘suffering along with your beneficiaries’, the fact that now far more young people were involved showed that volunteering was becoming normalised.  This is a very positive development, although with the Hospice and other projects that work with younger volunteers (such as the 5Cs), the question always arises as to how to maintain links with those volunteers once they have moved on.  Volunteering is something that develops with the emergence of a middle class, and that is what seems to be happening in Belarus and across the former Soviet Union (FSU).  But will it result in the emergence of a strong, independent voluntary sector?

Questions then followed, covering the Hospice’s role in training other organisations on how to run a successful volunteering programme, and whether or not the Hospice had been successful in influencing national legislation and policy.  In regard to training, the Hospice is already running 2-day seminars for partner organisations.  The Hospice has a good relationship with the Ministries of Social Work, Labour, and Health, but find that often one ministry will agree to a particular suggestion, but then not have access to funds to implement it, or will delegate to a less cooperative ministry.  Any work with government ministries takes time, and changes are happening, but slowly.  

Discussion from the floor centred on social pressure to volunteer vs. individual motivation, and who exactly counts as a volunteer.  Mr Padbiarozkin made it clear that while some young people in Belarus are compelled to do voluntary work, this is not the case with any of the volunteers at the hospice, who are all there of their own free will, and they try to distance themselves from such practices.  The volunteer definition that accompanied the new Law On Social Services only covers volunteers involves in social work; there is a danger in extending the definition, or lobbying for specific legislation on volunteering, as this might end up with the government exerting far greater control over the practice of volunteering than it does currently.  Finally, as one questioner pointed out, volunteers do not just work under professionals; they are also often involved in running an organisation and overseeing its activities, as trustees and members of the board.  Mr Padbiarozkin agreed that this was also the case with the Hospice.

Session 3:  Managing volunteers

Following lunch and a short film on volunteers working in a home for adults with severe learning difficulties in Peterhof, Russia, the focus turned to managing volunteers in different contexts, with input from Liza Hollingshead, part of Ecologia, which sends international volunteers to Kitezh Children’s Community in the remote Kaluga region of Russia; Galina Poliakova, who coordinates a network of older volunteers in Ukraine, as part of Age Concern Ukraine’s work, and; Justine Lyle, who has worked as a volunteer in both Russia and Kazakhstan.

Liza Hollingshead explained that Ecologia sends international volunteers to Kitezh, who then work alongside Russian volunteers, working with the children as well as in support roles.  Most are Russian language students who gain from being immersed in a Russian speaking working environment, while the children gain from being exposed to outside views and experiences, and have a chance to learn English with native speakers.  In the past 15 years, Ecologia has sent more than 250 volunteers to Kitezh, all of whom have gone through a rigorous selection process, which is led by Kitezh rather than Ecologia.  Ecologia’s role is to prepare the volunteers to work in a therapeutic community for children, and this includes implementing a rigorous child protection policy and running CRB checks on all volunteers.  From their experience, Ecologia feels that the most important thing in developing an international volunteering programme is to work closely with the partner organisation to identify who volunteers can best help, as well as to ensure that both sides have realistic expectations and are able to gain the maximum from the experience.  The fact that volunteers are asked to pay for all their living costs facilitates this, as it means that both sides are committed to making the volunteer placement work.   

In Ukraine, Age Concern has developed a network of 2000 volunteers (mainly women, and all aged over 55), who provide support to isolated elderly people in 10 cities across the country.  As Galina Poliakova reported, encouraging people to volunteer was initially difficult; there was still the expectation that this kind of social support should come from the state, and when encouraged to volunteer, people would say that they were too old, or too poor, to work for free.  But starting with a handful of volunteers, news of the project spread by word of mouth (far more effective than newspaper articles and television advertisements), and more and more were recruited as they heard about their friends’ and acquaintances’ positive experiences of volunteering.  Many come to share their knowledge and experience, and because they want to do something productive with their time.  Working with these volunteers is very intensive, and involves spending a lot of time working with each volunteer to identify what skills she has, and work out what she would like to do, so that she will get the most out of the experience. Ms Poliakova likened this to training cats, which takes time and a lot of love and patience.  The volunteers also need to be carefully monitored, to ensure they do not ‘burn out’ or end up being exploited.  Government attempts to encourage more volunteering in Ukraine have not considered what a delicate, time-intensive process it is, and has led to a very confused understanding of what volunteering actually is.  Reflecting on international volunteers, Ms Poliakova regretted that sometimes, international volunteers were used in a rather exploitative way, to do the work that local volunteers were unwilling to do.

Speaking from his own experience of being a volunteer in Russia and Kazakhstan, Justin Lyle felt that successful international volunteering depends on the volunteer having a clear aim as to what she or he wants to get out of the experience, and on the organisation where the volunteering will take place also having a clear idea as to what they want the volunteer to contribute, and a structure in place to enable him or her to contribute.  Like many other international volunteers working in the former Soviet Union, Mr Lyle was partly motivated by a desire to learn language; he noted that in contrast to other parts of the world, the former Soviet Union is unlikely to attract ‘generic’ volunteers, but rather those who have a specific linguistic and cultural interest.  Mr Lyle contrasted his experience of being a volunteer English teacher at a medical college in Kazakhstan with his time spent working in a closed institute for adults with learning difficulties in Peterhof, Russia.  The former placement did not work out, as the medical students were not interested in learning English.  The latter placement was far more successful, as here, there was a very good structure in place, including a language programme and orientation workshops, so that volunteers could get to know each other before they left for the placement. Another consideration in volunteering in the former Soviet Union is that while in countries such as the UK, volunteering has a long tradition and is respected, in many post Soviet contexts, it is seen as foolish and regarded with some suspicion; this inevitably shapes attitudes towards volunteers. 

Following these three interesting presentations, discussion centred on how best to attract younger, local people to volunteering in the former Soviet countries.  Mr Lyle felt that many young people simply can’t afford to spend time volunteering, and that as these societies become wealthier, younger people would be in a better position to volunteer, as they will have more free time.  In the mean time, being imaginative about what volunteering opportunities are offered (for instance, providing opportunities to volunteer once a month rather than expecting people to give up their time every week) and playing careful regard to who coordinates volunteer activities (e.g. appointing a woman from the community, rather than an existing male leader) could be ways of drawing younger people in.  One positive example was give of a project in Ryazan, in Russia, where a project working with disabled children had no difficulties recruiting local students of social work, who valued the opportunity to gain some professional experience.  However, another participant spoke of her experience of finding that on the one hand, some children’s institutions in Russia were not interested in working with local volunteers, they only wanted international volunteers, and on the other hand, wealthier Russian students were not interested in volunteering either, seeing it as a waste of time.  Galina Bodrenkova reiterated how important she felt it was to institutionalise volunteering in Russia through establishing local volunteer centres, as these would promote volunteering at the local level and be able to draw younger people in.  Ms Bodrenkova also felt that an international system for volunteering would also be beneficial to encourage transnational volunteering.  Overall, though, there was agreement that in each former Soviet country, local institutions and attitudes were playing a huge role in determining the development of volunteering.  

Session 4:  International volunteers:  good for both sides?

This final session began with Zoe Clements introducing the work of Stand International, an organisation which sends disadvantaged young people from all over Scotland on short international volunteer placements, including to Belarus.  Stand began in 2006, with the aim of helping a group of young, homeless people who wanted to volunteer, but found doing so in their home environment very difficult.  The young people Stand takes to Belarus and elsewhere are aged 16-25, often have drug and alcohol problems, are low-skilled, often with little education, and have very little self confidence.  When the programme started, most volunteers were male, but now, young women make up 80% of participants.  It is usually the first time that they have been abroad, and they need a huge amount of support before, during, and after the trip, particularly as many find the experience of returning to Scotland after their time away very difficult.  There are multiple risk factors involved in working with this group of people, all of which have to be taken into consideration.  There is also a very high drop out rate, so Stand routinely recruits three people for every volunteer place, knowing that two will drop out before the trip starts.  Volunteers are involved in light construction work (of which many of the volunteers already have experience), and working with disadvantaged children.  In regard to the latter, volunteers and the children they are working with have often been through many of the same experiences, which helps build connection.  Volunteers gain immensely from being in a totally new, alien environment, which gives them the time and the space to think and reflect, and from the novelty of having people interested in hearing about where they come from and their experiences, both during the placement, and when they return to Scotland.  

The Chernobyl Children Cancer Centre, Cardiff (5Cs) also takes 24-35 young volunteers from the UK (this time, 6th formers from Cardiff) on two-week placements to Belarus, to work at a summer camp run by the Minsk Children’s Hospice.  The 5Cs Chair, Bethan Powell, explained that each year, there was a huge demand for places, and a strict but fair selection process.  Each volunteer was expected to pay his or her individual costs, and to see themselves as part of 5Cs, which is entirely run by and made up of volunteers. International and Belarusian volunteers work side-by-side, either with the children, or on maintaining the summer camp facilities.  In the past, language has been an issue, with in some cases volunteers not being clear as to what they were supposed to be doing, as it was not explained to them.  However, more recently, there has been greater effort to make sure that the local volunteer coordinator speaks English, and that more experienced, returning volunteers remain on-site throughout the summer.  Recent feedback has been that now, the programme is successful because volunteers know exactly where they stand, and what is expected of them.  The 5Cs is one of the only organisations in the UK offering volunteering opportunities to under 18s, who are involved in running the whole programme, including fundraising, all year round, not just the summer camp.  Working with 17 and 18 year olds does have its challenges, but they also being enormous enthusiasm, and the Belarusian volunteers and camp leaders really welcome their presence and the positive impact it has on the children.  

The final presentation was from Timur Alexandrov, who spoke about international volunteering in Central Asia.  In this region, civic engagement is very low, and views towards international volunteers are inconsistent; these are both due to the difficult history that volunteering has had in Central Asia, given that during the Soviet period, volunteering effectively meant being compelled to join in unpaid work programmes.  For this reason, there is considerable distrust of the idea of volunteering, and it is difficult to encourage local people to get involved.  On the other hand, many international volunteers are keen to come to Kazakhstan, drawn by the fact that it is a society where traditional values are still strong, but which is also modernising and westernising rapidly.  Since the 1990s there has been a huge growth in national and international NGOs working in Kazakhstan and the other Central Asian countries, accompanied by large numbers of international volunteers.  For instance, between 1994 and 2011, 100,000 US Peace Corps volunteers spent time in the country.  These volunteers have brought with them new outlooks, social capital, skills, and experience.  However, international volunteering has been driven by the supply of volunteers, rather than by local demand; they may also have the effect of depleting local resources, because of the time and money that must be spent on orientation for volunteers, and looking after them.  Short term placements in particular may be of benefit to the volunteers, but not the host communities.  In conclusion, Mr Alexandrov said that he felt that Kazakhstani students returning from abroad would be a good source of ‘quasi international volunteers’, bringing with them as they would great enthusiasm to give something back to their country, as well as having a more international outlook and being committed to the values of volunteering.   

Questions following these presentations included funding for Stand and the 5Cs, the long and short-term impacts of Stands’ work for its volunteers, and on the United Nations Volunteers (UNV) programme in Kazakhstan.  Stand receives most of its funding from EVS, but there is not much available; volunteers are asked to fundraise as well, if that’s something that they can realistically manage.  With the 5Cs, all volunteers pay to participate, and then the organisation also holds two large fundraisers for the Belarus Children’s Hospice itself.  Immediately after returning to Scotland, some volunteers crash, but in the long term, most volunteers find that they start to stabilise following their placement, and are able to move on to counselling, sorting out housing, and gaining control over their addictions.  In one case, a young women took the decision to try and get her children back out of the care system, and was successful in doing this.  In regards to how the partner organisation benefits, the volunteers work very hard during their placement, often helping with construction work and repairs; this includes the girls, and seeing young women involved in manual labour can be quite an eye opener for the partners.  Mr Alexandrov spoke of how he had been involved in the UNV scheme in Kazakhstan, and of how it had an important role to play in raising the profile of volunteering in Kazakhstan, and the benefits of working with international volunteers.

Concluding session

In the Concluding session, Nicola Ramsden drew out some of the main themes that had emerged during the day’s discussions.  Ms Ramsden noted that the day had been one of really exchanging views from the BEARR region and the UK, beyond a more straightforward ‘compare and contrast’.  In particular, looking at the very different ways that volunteering had developed (and continues to develop) in the UK and the former Soviet Union, and how this is shaping how is counted as a volunteer, the point had been made as to how important traditions and the political and cultural context are in shaping volunteering.  An assumed dichotomy often emerges between ‘the volunteer’ and ‘the professional’, with, for instance, the Ukrainian government eager to encourage volunteering because volunteers are ‘free’.  But in fact, as Prof Hardill pointed out in the first presentation, volunteers are not ‘free’:  recruiting, training, and managing volunteers in fact absorbs considerable time, money, and resources.  

Given that volunteers are not free, how can organisations get better value from them, while at the same time, making volunteering a more rewarding experience?  Should organisations already running successful volunteering programmes teach others, as the Belarus Children’s Hospice is doing?  Or is the desired model one of local, official volunteer centres, as Galina Bodrenkova argued in the context of Russia, implicitly part of a state system, as they are state funded and are helping the state to fulfil its constitutional commitment to provide social services.  Elsewhere, Galina Poliakova put the case for centring volunteering on the individual psychology of volunteers, and responding to and meeting their needs first.  

Overall, though, these are what Ms Ramsden termed ‘institutional nuances’; what is clear across the region, as well as in the UK, is the readiness on the part of many people to volunteers, if this is done through their own free will, and enables them to meet certain personal needs.  In addition, volunteers are attracted to organisations and institutions where they will have the chance to work with people who are fun, clear-sighted, and inspirational.  

In a final round of questions and comments, Galina Bodrenkova clarified that she was calling for a system to enable the 30% of Russians who say they would like to volunteer but don’t know how to do so to volunteer, and that while this system of local volunteer centres would be state funded, it would independent.  Other reflections included that while in an ideal world, all volunteering would promote individual and community development, perhaps realistically, it is more important to sacrifice individual development in favour of community development. Responding to this, the point was made that both sides need to be honest that both sides need to get something from the experience, otherwise it simply doesn’t work. 

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